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Dieses Thema hat 18 Antworten
und wurde 498 mal aufgerufen
 Fragen zur Gentleman's League
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Cruo Offline

Testfahrer


Beiträge: 72

20.10.2019 12:20
Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

Cant find this in rules.
I download patch now ,and will start to use it if is needed. Didnt know that exist cos i didnt want to know.

But I see from last race rpy that most of You here have that standard speed time of 0.222 or 0.216(?)

I have g25 old 15 years and gplshift ,and I shift as fast as possible (sometimes under 0.100)cos that makes me faster and my abillity to change fast is giving me that speed. If I dont change fast than shifts are slower.

Like in normal car driving. When I want to pass car in front I shift realy fast.
You can be fast with chluch(Did you know that in almost every car you can shift without chluch from 4th to 5th gear.)



To me more unrealistic is to use paddles or sequence shifter or button shifting and say that is real thing cos shift times are real.
Like in real life you change every gear at same speed of 0.222
Like in 67 all drivers was shifting 0.222. Yea right.

Last test race at Road America I missed 2 times 5th gear and hit 3rd. Engine didnt go off. Strange.
All cos of trying to shift faster.
But.
That is another problem of H pattern shifting.
But if time is limited than those errors wont happend so offen. Cos u have time.

So non rule is perfect?

And today in 2020 are u gonna say that this is unfair advantage to have 15 years old wheel.
If we all have it why not use it ? Or here peoples drive on keys like me first 2 years of gpl. I bearly drowe some gpl rank negatives.

And chluch?

Any suggestions?

__________________________________________________
Sanjin Haler

Fabian Offline

Weltmeister


Beiträge: 728

20.10.2019 14:44
#2 RE: Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

funny you mention it, I just wanted to check shift times. When I watched you in the replay, it was quite clear to me, that it was faster than 0.222
(A cooper faster than the BRM on such a long straight? Uphill?!
No, really you drive stellar so why not be able to be faster... hehe )
Anyway we had this discussion before and though >I< prefer 0.222 by everyone, the tone was that it's not required - but maybe a Geli "manager" should answer this.

Cruo Offline

Testfahrer


Beiträge: 72

20.10.2019 15:25
#3 RE: Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

Well i instaled this and its ok. Fun on other hand ,I I dont mind.
My timing is now to fast and lots of upshift is power shift. But time will help. We are drivers and we must adapt.

First i change gplshift.ini under auto to none(shift behavior)
And pribluda stoped woring.
I put 0 at last line of shift.ini and pribluda works.
But i have pribluda in right mirror upsidedown. Hm.

Again I will use it but my suggestion is negative for this.
Cos who today dont have wheel and h shifter? If not that is thing to change. That is unrealistic.

https://youtu.be/r4gyXZJW9wI

__________________________________________________
Sanjin Haler

Robert Fleurke Online

Testfahrer


Beiträge: 91

20.10.2019 15:50
#4 RE: Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

This explains your advantage accelerating

Some leagues enforce Fairshift, but most don't. We also have to realize using RFB, clutch and H-pattern, using 1 hand steering a lot, is very difficult (if you aren't used to it).

Only recently I did get a G25 shifter (all G25 parts came from different ppl), I will try to adapt to it coming winter. ATM still using paddles in leagueracing. Also to me you can look at it different ways. Some insist to drive realistic for the 67 era, and some simply don't care for that. I don't even have a driving license, only for forklift, and it has no gears!

For me it's no problem how ppl drive, but I prefer at least cockpit view. Some real fast guys use F10, I never have. With NR2003 you had these forced cockpit view leagues.

In the end there is no right or wrong how to play GPL IMHO, but I would most likely use Fairshift when changing to H-pattern shifting, since lower neutral shifting times (GPLShift) will lead to better acceleration and topspeed

I have GPLshift installed, but only for driver view adjustments.

Carsten Theile Offline

Fahrschüler

Beiträge: 4

20.10.2019 17:36
#5 RE: Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

Fairshift never worked with the BRM for me - no 6th gear, ever. Fun thing to notice in the Long Night of the Ring. Coming from GPLShift, the timing for getting the gear in is different, so I'd suggest sticking with one of the programs and not switching back and forth. If I recall correctly it's that with GPLShift you have to have the clutch pressed as you put the gear in, whereas with Fairshift you can select the gear and then push the clutch pedal down.
One (or rather another) thing that spoils Fairshift for me is that the clutch becomes a digital trigger which, at 50% percent clutch pedal range, switches between neutral and whatever gear you're in, upsetting the car.
Does the developer race like this? Are they at the grip limit in curved braking zones (Rouen Hairpin, Monaco final corner, Monsanto T5, etc)?
I don't know how a two-pedal user could experience it for themselves, but maybe mapping the clutch to one of the pedals and going to a skidpad could work.

A few years ago I targeted my Ring PBs, did some testing on a dragstrip track ("1320"), looked at the speed graphs in GPLRA and merged the laps to one file.

If the EOLC forums were still online, I could point you to the post. Here are the replays and the two rank accounts, which basically were a decade-long experiment:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/0r6hxzbqq7...7-12-27.7z/file

http://www.mediafire.com/file/19ct55e7k7...parison.7z/file

http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/php-pub/use...howDriver=16175

http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/php-pub/use...howDriver=29101

My recommendation is to use GPLShift with a clutch_threshold of 5 or higher. GPLRA reports shorter upshift times, but that doesn't mean there's acceleration, since the clutch is disengaged (or slipping) for longer than the duration of the gear change.
Furthermore, in a race, you won't be able to do 20 laps without missing a gear if you shift like you would during hotlapping. If you miss it on an upshift, you'll lose 5 tenths minimum. If you don't realise it and smash the throttle, you'll blow an engine after 5 to 10 times. If you miss a downshift, you'll lose engine braking and struggle to make the turn.
Fairshift is the slowest option of all in hotlapping. It's closer to a level playing field than 0 clutch could ever be, but clutch settings of 5 to 9 in GPLShift will be closest to paddles. Bear with me if my memory serves me wrong here. I can't remember the exact setting either. It might not even matter; the main point is that the clutch should be mandatory when using GPLShift.
Standing starts are another can of worms.

I'd make the argument that a clutch_threshold of 9 is slower on the straights than paddles. I never quite got my head around whether or not there was a difference under braking, since auto-blip is disabled. Essentially, left-foot brakers use low brake biases and control rear wheel rotation by trailing throttle, heel'n'toers use higher brake biases (+2% or so) and can forego trailing throttle, but have control over the amount of throttle blip and can smooth out the clutch engagement, albeit there's no truly analog clutch in GPL. It's more like 5 or 7 steps of clutch modulation, which is still better than Fairshift's on/off neutral switch.

I'm all for fairness. I'm all for realism. Having the clutch pedal rendered useless takes the fun out of it, and pacewise it doesn't even match GPLShift at settings 5 to 9.

On a sidenote, I once mentioned the idea of a force feedback gear stick that would refuse to move out of neutral when you're grinding the gears. The Fairshift developer put it on the list of ideas, but I doubt there'll be customers. If there were, we would've have had this kind of thing in LFS, rF2 or AC.

Hans Marfan Offline

Renn-Legende


Beiträge: 1.557

21.10.2019 12:38
#6 RE: Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

Zitat von Robert Fleurke im Beitrag #4
We also have to realize using RFB, clutch and H-pattern, using 1 hand steering a lot, is very difficult (if you aren't used to it).


Exactly that is the point. Plus: a race is determined by so many varying factors that gear shift times in my view don't really make the difference. I'm pretty sure that with implemented fairshift the standings would look pretty much the same. An alien-level driver will race circles around folks like me with fairshift or not.

Everybody (including myself!) who thinks that shifter users have an unfair advantage is perfectly free to get a shifter. Problem solved.

In my view the whole thing is about a 'felt injustice' and not around real issues. What's next? Patches for joystick users? Triple-Screen patches? Office seat patches for race seat users? Speaker patches for Headset users?
This league has always been about a reduced set of basic rules and a lot of common sense. I'm not going to police replays for shift time crimes.

Much ado nothing.

Edith: Zur Sicherheit nochmal auf deutsch.
Roberts Punkt ist auch meiner. Dazu kommt, das ein Rennen von so vielen Unsicherheitsfaktoren geprägt wird, das Schaltzeiten keinen echten Unterschied ausmachen. Ich bin mir sehr sicher, das die Tabelle nicht anders aussehen würde. Aliens werden hier Kreise um mich fahren, Patch oder nicht.

Jedem hier (inkl. mir selber), der der Ansicht ist, Shifter bringen einen unfairen Vorteil, steht es absolut frei, sich selber einen Shifter zuzulegen. Problem gelöst.

Das ganze scheint sich eher um 'gefühlte Ungerechtigkeit' zu drehen als um echte Probleme. Was kommt danach? Patches für Joystick-Fahrer? Patches für triple screen? Bürostuhl-Patches für Rennsitzeigner? Lautsprecher-Patches für Headsetträger?
Eine der Hauptzutaten für diese Liga war immer ein reduzierter Regelsatz plus eine Menge gesundem Menschenverstand. Und ich werde nicht anfangen, Replays auf Schaltverbrechen hin zu untersuchen.

Viel Rauch um nichts.

Cookie Offline

mehrfacher Weltmeister

Beiträge: 826

21.10.2019 14:25
#7 RE: Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

Meinen Senf dazu...

Ich benutze Paddles.

Eigentlich bin wäre ich gerne auf Hans's Linie wenn H shifting immer das Kupplungspedal erforderte...

Aber

Ich habe mit 2 Fahrern die H shifter mit GPLShift aber ohne Kupplung benutzen meine Erfahrung gemacht.
Ich habe mit denen auch geredet und viel erfahren.

Auf einer einfachen Strecke wie zB Monza hat man im selben Lotus keine Chance mitzuhalten,
wenn einer ohne Kupplung aus der Lesmo2 herausbeschleunigt
.
Interessant wurde es als ich erfuhr, daß das G25 eines der Fahrer kaputt ging und er seitdem nur noch im Mittelfeld mitspielt!
Früher ist er Kreise um uns gefahren.

IMO ist es schon entscheident ob ich mit 0,216 oder 0.087 sec Unterbrechung schalte,
bei 10 upshifts sind das ~1,5 sec mehr Beschleunigung da wo es am wichtigsten ist.

Aber
Ich kenne auch Fahrer die mit Kupplung Schaltzeiten um 0,075 sec können!
Deshalb wurde bei UKGPL vom Fairshift Abstand genommen.

Bei der Gentlemen Liga sollte man von einem G-man erwarten, daß er ohne diesen cheat und mit Kupplung fahren kann...

Also mit Carsten:
"the main point is that the clutch should be mandatory when using GPLShift."

Gruss Axel
--------------------------------------------------------------
arm, wer keine Sterne sieht, ohne den Schlag ins Gesicht.
Stanislaus Jercy Lec

Ferdi Offline

Racing-Guru


Beiträge: 4.830

21.10.2019 18:07
#8 RE: Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

Ich bin schon froh, wenn ich beim Runterschalten im richtigen Gang lande . Immerhin habe ich herausgefunden, dass mein BRM wohl immer mit 0,216 sec Unterbrechung schaltet, ich habe aber nix gemacht, sondern nur das Spiel... äh... die Simulation installiert, also ist das wohl serienmäßig so. Wenn hier einer betrügen will, dann soll er doch. Solche Diskussionen sind mir etwas fremd, es geht hier ja nicht um Leben und Tod.

Gruß Ferdi

Fabian Offline

Weltmeister


Beiträge: 728

21.10.2019 19:14
#9 RE: Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

Neulich war grade mal ne Umfrage bei GPLRACER (dort is Fairshift Pflicht für H-Shifter), ausgelöst durch Probleme mit SC Mod (Aha! Letzter Gang geht nicht?!). Eventuell darf man bald auf eine neue Version hoffen.
Das wäre ja ggf. jetzt eine gute Gelegenheit, euer(e) Feedback / Beschwerden / Verbesserungswünsche (*hust* *hustCarsten* *hustCarsten!* ) darzulegen.

Zitat von Stefan Roess

Hello to all who use Fairshift.

I need your help to fix this. I am in contact with John (the author of Fairshift) via email and he needs to know:

- Does everyone have the problem that the last gear is not working? Or are only some people affected?
- Does it only happen online or also offline?
- Is it only the new SC mod or are also other mods affected?


>> zum Thread <<


cu

Cruo Offline

Testfahrer


Beiträge: 72

21.10.2019 19:23
#10 RE: Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

Thanks guys for posting. Nice.

Fairshift is bad. I try yesterday and again problems. Shiftier not working. bah bah. try this try that. I dont get it. Its not plug and play, and I dont want it. i hate third party apps running around.
I find this is pain.
So I droped that.
And guys try it rate it , but I say no to.

I a now in mood to learn(gplshift) RFB and chluch(5>9). Will practice it for Monaco race, why not.

I had this discussion with Carsten before and We agreed its fun and sounds fair.

Now problem is:

To drive like that you must be real DRIFT KING (or Carsten Thiele) and i think there is a few people driving it like that in world(or non).
So if You guys asking its mandatory to use it, its not fair to any one(who here knows to drift with real car, or I can say that you must drift real car if u have licence ,or not ;) ).
I won some Kart races , and i drive car really good , i can race , but I am not drift master.

If this is any other game than GPL I can use double clutch , two wheels or 7 pedals with no problem. And i know there will be no problem to sit and drive instantly. I try a lot of games. games

But guys this is f... GPL. For me the hardest sim racing game in world that have sense, or dont have sense.

I took 2 months on keys to finish single lap with lotus in Watkins Glen Demo.

When I get wheel same thing.

When I get h shifter same thing.

You have to sit on it to make a single lap with no error. its same today. its is impossible to do perfect lap. For me at least.

So I say Hans wrote smart thing. Use it drive it.

I say: Its all in learning curve for something.

Why all of you watching this like a cheat. Thats bad. GPL RANK was so smart back then. they put (they must know why) shifting time next to record time. And they didnt delete old record. hm. smart guys.

But they pointed out. Its not important who is first.

So again. I droped that Carsten solution when I start to drive here cos I was rusty for GPL ,and to learn that will take me 2 months to get in shape to drive with chluch at slow speeds around the race track if that will be possible anyway.

As I sad We are not all able to drift like DRIFT KING ever. I will try it. but this takes times.

And yea, i dont know how to be fast with RFB so expect times 2 sec down and bevare of crazy spins, cos I dont know if Heel Toe is possibe for me.

I watched all you guys to on Road America, I saw using throttle on braking.
So with RFB its i dont know how hard to master brake and trottle in a same time. and that thing is mandatory in GPL.

__________________________________________________
Sanjin Haler

Cruo Offline

Testfahrer


Beiträge: 72

21.10.2019 19:26
#11 RE: Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

Zitat von Fabian im Beitrag #9
Neulich war grade mal ne Umfrage bei GPLRACER (dort is Fairshift Pflicht für H-Shifter), ausgelöst durch Probleme mit SC Mod (Aha! Letzter Gang geht nicht?!). Eventuell darf man bald auf eine neue Version hoffen.
Das wäre ja ggf. jetzt eine gute Gelegenheit, euer(e) Feedback / Beschwerden / Verbesserungswünsche (*hust* *hustCarsten* *hustCarsten!* ) darzulegen.

Zitat von Stefan Roess

Hello to all who use Fairshift.

I need your help to fix this. I am in contact with John (the author of Fairshift) via email and he needs to know:

- Does everyone have the problem that the last gear is not working? Or are only some people affected?
- Does it only happen online or also offline?
- Is it only the new SC mod or are also other mods affected?


>> zum Thread <<


cu



No needed. Dont know why to use this program.

__________________________________________________
Sanjin Haler

Cruo Offline

Testfahrer


Beiträge: 72

21.10.2019 22:15
#12 RE: Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

here are some laps. first laps perfect. later problems and more problems, but i am happy. its hell

so GPLSHIFT

Clutch_Threshold = 5


https://files.fm/u/jmybrwtu

__________________________________________________
Sanjin Haler

Robert Fleurke Online

Testfahrer


Beiträge: 91

22.10.2019 11:59
#13 RE: Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

Zitat von Carsten Theile im Beitrag #5
can of worms.


Thanks for your knowledgable posting Carsten! I learnt some stuff.

It's not only lower neutral shifting times (LFB, H-shifter, no clutch) that are viewed as controversial. Also using setup manager, adjusting driver view, and 60fps patch will be regarded as hacks/cheats by some (Phil Woodward for example never used any of these).

So, let me confess I alter the driver view to have my mirrors on my sidescreens, using no letterbox patch (to get rid of black bars) and I do finetune the setups in GPL setup manager...

For me you don't have to change your driving style, Sanjin.

Fabian Offline

Weltmeister


Beiträge: 728

22.10.2019 12:16
#14 RE: Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

Zitat von Robert Fleurke im Beitrag #13
I do finetune the setups in GPL setup manager...

Yup, that's definitevely cheating.

(but go ahead.. )

Robert Fleurke Online

Testfahrer


Beiträge: 91

22.10.2019 12:48
#15 RE: Fairshift? Yes or no Antworten

Zitat von Fabian im Beitrag #14
Zitat von Robert Fleurke im Beitrag #13
I do finetune the setups in GPL setup manager...

Yup, that's definitevely cheating.

(but go ahead.. )



Secretly I also use the clutch pedal as brake pedal

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